Rick Rubin: Protocols to Access Creative Energy and Process

High-Level Overview

Rick Rubin, the producer behind records by Johnny Cash, the Beastie Boys, Slayer, Adele, Eminem and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and author of The Creative Act: A Way of Being, returns to the Huberman Lab to answer listener questions. After his first appearance, thousands of people left questions on YouTube. Andrew Huberman printed more than a thousand of them, sorted them, and promised to talk less and give Rick more airtime. The result is Rick's most practical conversation yet about how he works: his breathing and meditation practices, his daily routine and relationship with light, how he gets past creative blocks, why he ignores outcomes, how he captures ideas, and how he thinks about money, relationships, education and the truth.

The tone is relaxed, warm and often funny. The two are close friends, and stories from Huberman's summer visit (treading water in Rick's pool while listening to podcasts) and a pro wrestling night out come up throughout. The conversation starts with a live breathing exercise and moves through practical habits, creative philosophy and stories from Rick's career.

The Discussion Explores:

• Coherence breathing for heart rate variability, and Rick's 45 years of Transcendental Meditation and loving-kindness practice
• Living as naturally as possible: morning sun, red light at night, wired or air-tube headphones, and the diet that helped him lose 135 pounds
• Writer's block as self-judgment or fear of others' judgment, and treating every creative work as a "diary entry"
• Why thinking about outcome undermines the work, and why the artist is a vessel instead of the source
• Sensitivity, protecting your inner life, and why pro wrestling is a surprisingly accurate model of the world
• Dreams, the unconscious, and Andrew Dice Clay's story as a lesson in motivation
• Money, ingenuity and limits, including Tetragrammaton's unusual ad reads
• Daily routine, education, relationships, book recommendations, and how Rick approaches music, documentaries and podcasting

Deep Dive into Main Ideas

Breathing, Meditation and the Practice of Being

The episode opens with Rick leading five minutes of coherence breathing at six breaths per minute. He started it because his heart rate variability was relatively low, and he says the numbers went up. He aims for 10 minutes a day, sees a noticeable effect at 20, and keeps his mind occupied during the exercise by counting breaths. Some of his routines depend on place: air squats with breathing where he had no equipment, or treading water, getting out to sit in the sun, and then breathing. He says treading water is like stairs: "If you practice doing stairs, it gets easier to do stairs." Huberman confirms he adapted within days during his visit and now treads water in his own pool while listening to podcasts, including Rick's show Tetragrammaton and Andrew Hickey's A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs.

Rick learned Transcendental Meditation at 14. It's still his default, and it sometimes turns into breathing, gratitude or a metta (loving-kindness) practice, which he learned from the Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield. Metta repeats phrases like "May I be filled with loving kindness." Over a year or more, you extend it from yourself to your immediate family, then to your community, and eventually after about five years to the whole planet. He says that after nearly 45 years of meditating, much of the benefit is simply part of who he is, quoting the Maharishi's line that "every time you meditate is like making a deposit in a bank." For Rick, the point of the practice is how it changes you in the world, not the practice itself. Huberman compares this to exercise: the stress happens during the workout, and the benefits show up afterward.

Natural Living: Sun, Skin, Headphones and Diet

Rick tells a story from that morning. A man in dark clothes, shoes, sunglasses and a hat stopped him on the beach to talk about comedy and mentioned he had terrible insomnia. Rick told him it was probably because he was wearing sunglasses in the sun, which mixes up the body's day and night signals. The man turned out to have been a dermatologist for 40 years who had spent his career telling people to stay out of the sun. He looked at Rick's back and said he had perfect skin. Rick told him this is what healthy skin looks like when it's exposed to the sun, and that yes, everything he'd been teaching was wrong. Huberman adds his own view that morning and evening sunlight, with its low solar angle, carries color contrasts (blue next to orange or pink) that tell the body what time of day it is, and he hopes dermatologists will start talking with circadian biologists.

Huberman explains that he stopped using Bluetooth headphones because he kept getting lymph-filled swellings behind his ears, which went away when he stopped and came back when he started again. Some experts he's interviewed aren't worried about them, but his view is "if there's any concern whatsoever, why would I use them?" Rick goes a step further and uses air-tube headphones that carry sound to the ears with no electronics near the head. Rick describes his approach as living "as natural way as possible": as few processed foods as possible, grass-fed animals, and hardly any manufactured products. He lost 135 pounds on a high-protein, low-calorie, low-carb diet suggested by a UCLA doctor, after more than 20 years as a vegan, which he now says left him very unhealthy even though his intentions were good. He thinks diets differ by person, but that most people would benefit from healthy red meat, which he feels has been unfairly vilified. Huberman adds that it should come from animals that aren't factory farmed.

Childhood, Magic, AI and Point of View

Asked about AI, Rick says he doesn't know enough to comment, but what interests him in art is "the point of view of the person making it," and he isn't sure AI has a point of view of its own. As a child, he mostly read, listened to music, played along on guitar even though he couldn't really play, and practiced magic: shuffling cards in front of a mirror and learning coin tricks and sleight of hand. When music took over his life, he had to choose, because both were full-time pursuits. They both love mentalism. Huberman describes seeing the mentalist Asi Wind twice, and says Asi told him a lot of his craft involves forming and erasing memories in people very quickly. Rick loves mentalism because it doesn't rely on props, so it feels like pure magic.

Blocks, Diary Entries and Deadlines

About 10% of listener questions were about writer's block or feeling stuck. Rick says to look past the block to its cause, which is usually one of two things: "either a self-judgment or fear of outside judgment." His answer is to make things with the freedom of a diary: "Everything I make is a diary entry." No one can tell you your diary entry is wrong, because it's simply your honest experience at that moment. It doesn't need to be your best work, change the world or sell a certain number of copies. If you're just being honest about where you are, there's nothing to block. The block is a made-up story that you then live inside. Because ideas don't come from us, and we're vehicles for information that's always coming through, if you have nothing at your desk, go for a walk and something will spark.

Huberman has a realization on the spot. His trouble getting into deep work in his new, very quiet office isn't about the work. He keeps reaching out to people because some part of him fears that if he disappears into the "tunnel of creation for a few hours, no one will be there when he comes out. That's an old fear of separation, even though he now feels very well supported. He says deadlines help him jump into the tunnel. Rick says deadlines don't help at the start, because he usually has no idea what a project will become and any time pressure undermines the freedom it needs. Once the code's been cracked" and you're refining details, a deadline can help.

Outcome Is Out of Your Control

Many listeners asked how to know whether their work is "worth it. Rick says the question depends on outcome, and outcome isn't why we make things. Making the best thing you can is a devotional practice. Whatever happens afterward is out of your control, and Putting any energy into that part that's out of your control is wasted time." In fact, "any thought you have about outcome undermines the whole thing." Only once the work is finished does it make sense to think about how to get people interested in it. Huberman compares this to good science: you ask a question, form a hypothesis and see what's true, and only then decide which journal it belongs in. People who fake data aren't there for the truth. Rick agrees it's exactly the same, and says that while writing the book he realized these principles make you a better person in any role, which is why its subtitle is "a way of being."

He clarifies that even though he talks about tapping into yourself, the work doesn't come from the self. You're the vessel, or like a data analyst connecting points you've taken in from the world, many without realizing it, into a constellation. A narrow belief system gives you fewer data points, so he recommends holding beliefs loosely and staying open to surprise. Huberman sees a balance between good boundaries (not confusing what's yours with what others want) and good antennae for the world. Rick says it comes naturally to him and has changed over time: he once expected to live in New York forever, and now feels best in the jungle or forest. "I know nothing," they agree, so if something sounds worth trying, try it and see if it works, which is how he ended up leaving veganism.

Sensitivity, Johnny Cash and the Truth of Pro Wrestling

A listener quoted a passage from Rick's book: many great artists die of overdoses because they're numbing a painful existence, and the pain comes from the same sensitivity that made them artists. Rick says he feels it himself. He's "unusually sensitive," wears red glasses indoors, lives a protected, monk-like life because too much stimulation gets in the way, and was an only child who spent most of his time alone. Some voices bother him so much he can't be around them, so he carefully chooses the people around him. With artists, anything that interferes with the work is worth discussing, and sometimes that becomes therapeutic, but the focus is always the work.

Yet the night before, the two went to an AEW wrestling show, which Huberman says reminded him of the loving aggression of early punk shows. Rick says wrestling completely relaxes him because there are no real stakes. Everyone is working together to protect each other. "It's like a ballet where there's a fight in the ballet." He argues it's also the most accurate picture of reality: people tell stories, maybe believing them, and we can never really know what's true. "You'd have a better sense of the world if you took it all in like it was pro wrestling," including the news. He thinks that's partly why wrestling is more popular than ever.

On Johnny Cash, Rick remembers a soulful, serious, shy and humble man who knew the history of music deeply. His greatness came from "the human being underneath," not his skills as a singer or songwriter. When he told a story, you believed it. He was a "beam of light" who just happened to make music.

Dreams, the Unconscious and Andrew Dice Clay

Rick has kept dream journals at various points. He doesn't analyze dreams in the moment, but looking back years later, he found that surreal dreams from the same period were all saying the same thing about his life. They were reflections of how his subconscious was experiencing things. Huberman shares Paul Conti's view that the unconscious is the brain's real supercomputer and that it teaches us in the way we learn best (for Huberman, visual analogies). Rick adds that our instincts reflect the unconscious, and "The instinct and the unconscious is where the great ideas are," while ideas from the intellect carry much less charge.

At Huberman's request, Rick tells the story of Andrew Dice Clay. The comedian's offensive material sold out Madison Square Garden, but critics vilified him. Clay had become a comedian because he wanted people to love him, so the bad press hurt, and he changed his act to win over people who didn't like him. That undermined his gift and things fell apart. Rick thinks he's in a better place now, caring less about the reaction, and getting a better reaction because he's doing what he actually finds funny. Huberman praises Clay's acting in A Star Is Born. Rick's advice to a new comedian is short: "Would be true to yourself and not to listen to anyone." He confirms that Ad-Rock insisted he listen to LL Cool J's demo tape.

Writing, Journaling and Capturing Ideas

Rick's advice for Huberman's book: get to a complete draft you're "happy-ish with as soon as possible, and don't get bogged down in details until the whole thing is down. Huberman is writing it like diary entries, and he describes his lifelong journaling: one to eight handwritten pages, starting in capital letters and switching to cursive as he speeds up, usually to get out whatever is clogging" him, sometimes tear-stained, and sometimes, like that morning, joyful. He previews James Pennebaker's expressive writing research: writing for 15 minutes a day on four days about the same most difficult experience of your life. He says data from more than 200 studies show benefits for psychology, physiology and immune function, and he calls the results comparable to prescription treatments like SSRIs.

For capturing ideas, Rick writes notes in his phone constantly, though he admits he sometimes can't remember what a note meant, and says voice memos might be worth trying. He doesn't abandon projects. Ideas seem to have their own timing, so he keeps many projects going and doesn't fight the universe when one hits a wall while another sails along. He loves how much the internet makes available. When streaming arrived, he thought "I'm just going to DJ" all day, then found he preferred curated playlists and online radio because he liked the surprise of someone else's choices. Lately he's been listening to interpretations of the Bible on YouTube, working through the Old Testament from start to finish. On smartphones, he says "the tools don't make or break your art," and they can be used well or badly.

Money, Ingenuity and Solving Problems

Rick stays out of the business side entirely and has "no idea how deals get done. Huberman remembers him politely steering a dinner conversation back with let's talk about art instead. Coming from a do-it-yourself punk background, Rick never let money stop him. He'd use a friend's home studio or borrow a drum machine. He says the idea is what makes a project possible, and the ingenuity is figuring out how to do it" with whatever you have. He mentions his friend Darren Aronofsky, whose low-budget first film Pi was loved, while a later huge-budget film didn't succeed. More money doesn't necessarily help you tell a story, and making the version you can afford adds something real. Huberman describes launching his podcast from a closet in Topanga Canyon and choosing audio-friendly explanations over expensive visuals.

Rick has never held back a release for being too obscure. He says he's been told every new thing he did would fail: the Geto Boys, LL Cool J, the Beastie Boys, Slayer, Johnny Cash, Adele, Eminem. The celebrated ad reads on Tetragrammaton came from a problem: he didn't want to read ads in the usual way, so he only advertises products he uses and made the ads into something he enjoys. Now they're his favorite part of the show. Sometimes innovative ideas come not from looking for innovation but from solving a problem in a way that's true to you, and the solution becomes a feature.

Alcohol, Psychedelics, Organization and Childlike Wonder

Rick doesn't drink. He's had alcohol only once, for a required class experiment, and he doesn't use drugs. He thinks being an only child made him more confident in who he is and less susceptible to peer pressure, and he's always known what he likes. He's curious about psychedelics but has never tried them. Huberman describes taking a high dose of psilocybin and MDMA in clinical trial settings, stressing the value of an eye mask and a clinician for introspection, and mentions ibogaine research for veterans with PTSD, which has cardiac risks and isn't legal in the US.

Huberman sees Rick as creative but highly organized. Rick says early stages are free and playful, maybe chaotic, and things only become controlled once something interesting appears. When the work goes somewhere dangerous, "that's when it gets interesting." He remembers his disbelief hearing the Geto Boys push gangster rap into horror-movie territory. Personally, he doesn't enjoy adrenaline in visuals, and says the film Melancholia put him in a bad mood for three months. He treats the news like wrestling too. On childhood, he tries to stay childlike and open to wonder. He regrets explaining bioluminescence to a friend who was having a magical experience with glowing waves, because the explanation ruined it. He lets possibilities go beyond the rational story. On whether the Ramones took their name from Paul McCartney's hotel alias "Paul Ramone," he says he knows McCartney used the name but doesn't know if that's where the band got it. He also says he doesn't remember Henry Rollins's story about Joe Strummer pitching Johnny Cash a song, because everyone experiences the same moment differently.

Daily Routine, Light and "Cheap Photons"

Rick's mornings start by waking slowly and going into the sun "as naked as possible," maybe stretching on a mat with foam rollers or balls, then taking a long beach walk (or going to a gym several days a week) about an hour after waking, sometimes followed by a hot tub. He writes down exciting thoughts but doesn't engage in work until 11 a.m. at the earliest, often 1 p.m., and does focused work until about 6. Evenings are for winding down with his family under red light only, with red glasses and a red-tinted phone. He avoids work calls, may watch wrestling or a documentary, is in bed by 10 and asleep within about 15 minutes. He says the difference in his sleep is huge, and other people's bright phones at night now seem blinding to him.

Huberman mentions the iPhone triple-click shortcut for a red screen that Rick's household taught him, and cites data that red light lowers cortisol at night for shift workers. He offers a theory: cheap, nutrient-poor calories and cheap blue "photons" from modern lighting, both consumed at the wrong times, may help explain the obesity and mental health crises. He notes that science often trails practitioners by decades, citing Mike Mentzer's low-volume, heavy training.

Education, Relationships and Recommended Reading

Rick says formal education "seems like an obsolete idea" for most creative paths, unless something can only be learned in an institution. He recommends internships, the right mentor and learning from people who actually do the work. Huberman notes that the Geto Boys, Slayer, Public Enemy, Adele and Eminem never needed degrees. On relationships, Rick says ideally your work should be the most stressful part of your life, and home is the safe place you go out from: "I'm fearless when it comes to art I'm not fearless when it comes to life." Relationships need honesty. If one person isn't telling the truth, the two are living in different worlds and aren't really together, even if they disagree. Lying to a partner, like lying in a diary, only fools yourself. Huberman compares it to Social Distortion's song about cheating at solitaire.

Rick's favorite meditation book is Wherever You Go, There You Are, which he was given at about 14 and a half. He credits its mountain visualization with helping him through many years and has just received a rewritten 30th-anniversary edition. Asked whether ancestry comes through in art, he says it's possible but can't be known and may not matter. Many things we do are mysterious. "It may be UFOs are controlling us" for all we know.

Listening, Albums, Videos and Podcasting

When Rick listens to music, he just stays open: does it make him lean forward, and does it do something unexpected that still works? Strangely, he says, you can often tell from the very first sound whether something will be good. It's the intention in the performance, not the note or instrument. He avoids listening critically when he can't be fully present and sometimes tells artists so. Albums can be made in a weekend or over years, like the difference between a single diary entry and three months of them, and neither is better. On music videos, he says it's the artist's choice when he appears, and that images can sometimes limit the listener's imagination. He wrote his book so that readers take part in it, "an invitation to think" rather than instructions, and the cover is open to interpretation too. Current projects include documentaries (he watches many to learn which formats to avoid) and new albums from Marcus King and The Gossip.

On podcasting, Rick says he realized from listening to Huberman on Lex Fridman's show that most hosts also talk to the audience. Tetragrammaton is different: he asks only what he personally wants to know, and he doesn't film it so guests forget they're recording. The result sounds like overhearing a private conversation. Huberman recalls opening up to Rick about a very hard time in his life the first time they met in person, which cemented their friendship. He says the best podcasts, like Cameron Hanes's lift-run-shoot format, work because the host is doing what they truly love. Rick mentions a three-hour conversation with actor Daniel Kaluuya that felt like meeting a new best friend.

Conclusion

Across dozens of listener questions, Rick Rubin's answers keep coming back to the same few principles. Make things honestly, like a diary entry. Let go of outcome, because it's out of your control. Treat yourself as a vessel, and hold beliefs loosely so there's more to draw from. Protect your inner life, but stay open to surprise and wonder. His habits support this: breathing and meditation, morning sun and a slow start, red light at night, curated relationships, and doing what you can with whatever means you have. Huberman adds research on light, journaling and self-experimentation, and has his own small breakthrough about why he avoids deep work. The episode is both a practical guide to Rick's routines and a reminder that creativity, like science and like good relationships, depends on telling the truth.

This is a summary of "Rick Rubin: Protocols to Access Creative Energy and Process" from Huberman Lab, giving you the GIST so you can decide if you want the REST. Listen to the full episode.