Plant-based or meat-centered? How doctors, a rancher and celebrities split

The Short Version

Eight conversations take up the old fight between plants and meat, and they split less cleanly than the slogans suggest. On health, the doctors and nutrition scientists mostly agree that quality matters more than tribe: Mark Hyman says "The one size that fits all is quality" [3], Marie-Pierre St-Onge says there is "no reason to pit one another against the other" [7], and Gabrielle Lyon insists "I am not anti-plant" while arguing that animal protein is the easier way to protect muscle [4][5]. On protein specifically, Lyon and Layne Norton agree that plant eaters can build muscle but need more total protein, better-chosen sources and some planning [5][6]. The sharpest disagreements are about values rather than nutrition: Woody Harrelson believes most in raw living food [2], Travis Barker eats plant-based but judges no one [1], and rancher Taylor Sheridan and Joe Rogan argue that ethical veganism ignores the animals killed to grow crops [8]. The environment sits in between, with Hyman and Lyon arguing that grazing animals belong on land that can't grow crops, and Rogan praising regenerative farms while admitting cities depend on factory farming [2][3][4].

Table of contents

What They Said

The plant-based side: Travis Barker and Woody Harrelson

Travis Barker: plant-based, dialed in, and not judging. Blink-182 drummer Travis Barker tells Joe Rogan he was naturally vegetarian as a kid, pocketing ham under his father's rule that he had to eat everything or stay at the table, and went fully vegan after his 2008 plane crash, avoiding even honey [1]. The crash also tested his diet in a way few people experience. During about six months in a burn center, old-school doctors, realizing he wasn't eating the meat they served, put a feeding tube down his throat; a nurse started making him beef jerky, and with 3,000-calorie smoothies he reached the 6,000 to 7,000 calories a day he needed to heal [1].

Today Barker says he gets "an insane amount of protein" from lentils and beans rather than mock meats, and that his blood work shows top-notch protein [1]. He also uses Gary Brecka's Perfect Aminos, five in the morning and five at night, which he calls a game changer [1]. The conversation acknowledges that it takes work: "it is difficult to dial in it is you you got to navigate just like anything else" [1]. The exchange also names the trap: "there's so many people that they go vegan but then they just eat like vegan pizza" [1]. Barker stresses that there are junk-food meat eaters and junk-food vegans alike, and that it's about dialing your diet in [1].

What stands out is his tolerance. His household is mixed: "my one daughter is vegetarian. My son eats meat," he says, and "whatever everyone decides is what i'm cool with" [1]. He is close friends with bowhunter Cameron Hanes and says he doesn't care what people eat or how they vote; he judges people only by whether they're good [1]. Rogan, who eats mostly wild game, explains his own reasoning in the same exchange: he doesn't love animal cruelty, but animals eat animals, and when he hunts he is "in complete contact with where my food's coming from" [1]. Rogan also argues that people who aggressively attack others over diet, politics or religion are often just looking for an excuse to be unpleasant, and that you change no one's mind that way [1].

Woody Harrelson: raw living food. Actor Woody Harrelson tells Rogan he is vegan, but "my real belief is in raw living food" [2]. His reasoning centers on enzymes rather than macronutrients: where most talk is about getting enough protein or carbs, he considers enzymes, the life force of the food, its most important component [2]. "Anything you cook over 118 degrees for a minute, you destroy the enzymes in most of the nutritional value of the food. And that's why I'm a believer in raw living food" [2]. He bases this on his own experiments with eating raw and eating cooked food: "you can really feel the difference" [2]. He is candid that it's hard: "I agree that it's very hard to avoid eating cooked food because it's delicious," so his aim is to eat as much raw as possible, with lots of sprouts and microgreens [2].

Harrelson also takes niacin and ginseng, likes medicinal mushrooms, and considers fasting the best way to restore health, describing disease as congestion that begins in the colon [2]. He favors Antoine Béchamp's terrain theory over Louis Pasteur's germ theory, while Rogan suggests it's likely both [2]. The conversation then turns to farming. Rogan reads a report claiming 100% of tested Girl Scout cookies contained glyphosate and praises regenerative farmers Joel Salatin and Will Harris of White Oak Pastures, whose soil in the studio, he says, "is dark and rich and filled with nutrients" next to pale industrial soil [2]. But Rogan also concedes the scale problem: "we're reliant upon factory farming right now, to a large extent, because there's enormous populations of people that live in a place where they grow nothing" [2].

The middle ground: Mark Hyman's "pegan" diet

How "pegan" began. Functional medicine physician Mark Hyman says the name of his diet began as a joke: on a panel between a vegan cardiologist and a paleo doctor who were fighting, he said that if one was paleo and the other vegan, he must be pegan [3]. Thinking about it afterward, he decided the two camps agree on nearly everything (whole foods, lots of vegetables, nuts, seeds, good fats, little sugar, no processed food) and differ mainly on where protein comes from [3]. His book's two principles are that food is medicine, meaning information that can upgrade or downgrade your biology with every bite, and that nutrition should be personalized [3].

Quality over dogma. Hyman says he encourages people "to listen to their body, not to dogma," and to trust "the smartest doctor in the room, which is their own body" [3]. Keto doesn't suit him but may suit a diabetic; Rich Roll thrives as a vegan endurance athlete; but Hyman also describes a 26-year-old patient, "a vegetable and sugar vegan," who was not overweight but had acne, gut trouble and very low protein, vitamin D, B12, iodine and zinc [3]. When Lewis Howes takes his point to be that no one size fits all, Hyman answers: "The one size that fits all is quality, is understanding food is information" [3].

Feedlot versus regenerative meat. Hyman draws his line not between plants and animals but between ways of raising animals. "So feedlot meat is an abomination," he says, calling it cruel to animals and destructive to the environment through monocrop corn and soy feed, hormones and antibiotics: "bad for you, bad for the planet, bad for the animals" [3]. But that doesn't mean a wild buffalo or a fully grass-finished, regeneratively raised animal is bad for you [3]. He cites Fred Provenza's work and research he says found plant compounds such as green tea catechins in properly raised meat, depending on what the animals ate, and an Australian study in which, he says, kangaroo meat lowered inflammatory markers while feedlot meat raised them [3]. Elk is his favorite meat [3].

Soil and the land argument. Hyman's environmental case is that animals are needed to rebuild soil. He tells the story of North Dakota farmer Gabe Brown, who he says turned a failing monocrop farm around with cover crops, crop rotation and grazing animals, building 29 inches of topsoil and earning 20 times his neighbor's profit without chemical inputs [3]. He adds that "40% of agricultural land around the world is not suitable for growing crops. So even if you're a vegan, you want to grow crop, you can't do that on that land" [3]. On whether people should eat the animals, he leaves room: "you don't have to eat them or not, right? You don't have to eat them. But you have to include them in the cycle because without them, you cannot build soil at a rapid rate" [3]. A plant-based burger like the Impossible Burger, he concedes, is "better than a feedlot burger," but he argues it is grown on glyphosate-sprayed monocrop soy, and he claims a regeneratively raised beef burger removes three and a half kilos of carbon where a plant-based burger grown on monocrop soy adds as much [3]. He presents regeneration as common ground: "You're going to be vegan or paleo, but like, you can't be against that" [3].

Hyman's closing advice sums up his position on the whole debate: "Eat real food. Don't eat crap" [3]. Many of his figures are bold and go unchallenged in the episode, including his claim that the food system end to end is the number one cause of climate change [3].

The protein case: Gabrielle Lyon

Muscle first. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, a fellowship-trained geriatrician who calls her approach muscle-centric medicine, enters the debate through protein quality [4][5]. Her central claim is that skeletal muscle is the organ of longevity, and that protecting it requires enough high-quality protein in each meal [4][5]. Muscle needs a meal threshold of about 2.5 grams of leucine to be stimulated, which works out to at least 30 grams of quality protein in one sitting as you age [4]. If you eat 15 grams of protein at breakfast, lunch and dinner, she says, you will not stimulate muscle: "It either happens or it doesn't" [4].

Why animal protein is easier. Lyon says protein quality is defined by amino acid composition, and that animal proteins like eggs, whey, beef and poultry have a profile similar to human muscle [5]. Plants are lower in essential amino acids, so a plant-based diet needs more calories to match [4]. Her memorable example: "You would need six cups of quinoa to equal the amino acid profile of one small chicken breast" [4]. Plant proteins also usually come with carbohydrates attached, which matters for metabolic control [5]. She points to nutrients beef supplies that plants lack or provide in less bioavailable form: "There's no creatine in plant products," and iron is more bioavailable in red meat, along with B vitamins, zinc and taurine [4]. She also cites a study from Luc van Loon's lab in which a 40-gram mixed meal containing animal protein stimulated muscle protein synthesis while a comparable plant-only meal did not, possibly because of slower absorption and fiber [5].

But plants can work. Lyon is explicit that she is not against plant eating. "I want to be very clear that I am not anti-plant. I'm not. And I am not at one extreme or the other," she tells Howes [4]. With Andrew Huberman she says "we could get all of our dietary protein from plants, from plant-based sources," with a caveat: "If an individual was plant-based, they would require closer to 1.6 grams per kg" [5]. Asked whether a high-protein plant diet is hard, she answers, "It is difficult and it can be done," but it needs a careful nutrient plan [4]. For vegans she recommends rice and pea protein blends and newer fermented protein powders, and an essential amino acid blend to top up meals that fall short [4][5]. She warns that "as individuals age a vegan diet can be very challenging," with B12, zinc and iron to watch [5].

The 70% plant-based claim. Lyon argues that Americans are already about 70% plant-based by national survey data, while being told by mass media to eat even fewer animal products [4]. But she clarifies with Huberman that this is not a diet of vegetables: "when I say 70% plant based diet, I'm talking about refined carbohydrates, sugars, cereals" [5]. Her point is that pushing people further toward plants, when most of those plants are refined, does not help muscle [4][5].

Red meat, evidence and emotion. Lyon calls food science "almost like the ultimate oxymoron," because food carries emotion, religion, family and community, while science should be reproducible and unbiased [4]. She says Americans eat only about 1.6 to 1.8 ounces of red meat a day on average, and cites a 2019 series of papers in the Annals of Internal Medicine that put the evidence through the GRADE system and found no reason to cut back [4]. She says there is not one randomized controlled trial in humans showing red meat is harmful, and that the negative claims come from epidemiology: "But epidemiology is not high quality data" [4]. On the Blue Zones, her answer is the same: "Blue zones is epidemiology data," those populations do eat protein, and "the rigors of science support a higher protein diet for aging" [4]. What she wants, she says, are "transparent conversations" rather than emotional ones [4].

The environment. Lyon also addresses the climate argument [4]. By her figures, industry, electricity and transportation make up 80% or more of U.S. emissions, agriculture about 9%, and cattle perhaps 3% [4]. Using a paper-folding illustration, she explains that most land is marginal land that can't grow crops and can only be used for grazing [4]. If you live in Minnesota and care about the environment, she suggests, skipping avocados shipped from far away would make more difference than cutting high-quality nutrients [4].

The scientist's comparison: Layne Norton

Plants can build muscle, with planning. Layne Norton, a biochemist and nutritional scientist known for his work on protein metabolism, says he once doubted that people could build as much muscle on plants, but now believes they can with planning, usually with an isolated protein source [6]. Whole plant proteins come packaged with extra carbohydrate or fat, are less bioavailable, and contain less leucine and fewer essential amino acids [6].

Leucine is the difference. Norton's own study compared wheat, soy, egg and whey at equal protein and calories; only egg and whey raised muscle protein synthesis, but adding free leucine to wheat to match whey made the response identical [6]. His advisor Donald Layman's explanation was that leucine is a good signal because it passes through the gut and liver largely unmetabolized and enters muscle by passive diffusion [6]. Norton lists practical options for plant eaters: soy is a complete protein and in moderate amounts doesn't appear to affect testosterone or estrogen; potato protein isolate resembles whey; animal-free whey made by fermentation is emerging; corn protein is about 12 percent leucine and works well in blends with soy or pea; and a one-gram leucine capsule with a meal can top up leucine [6].

Total protein first. Norton says benefits largely plateau around 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, with perhaps small gains up to 2.4 to 2.8, and he sees few downsides to more [6]. His rule of thumb is to get enough total protein, ideally across two or three high-quality meals [6].

Fiber and fat: the other half of his view. Norton's view on plants is not only about protein. He calls fiber "kind of the longevity hack," citing a meta-analysis of over a million people in which each 10-gram increase in fiber was associated with about 10 percent lower mortality risk [6]. Unlike red meat studies, he says, he has never seen a fiber study that failed to show benefit [6]. He suggests limiting saturated fat to about 7 to 10 percent of calories, and he changed his mind on cholesterol after Mendelian randomization studies convinced him that lifetime LDL exposure has a linear effect on heart disease [6]. He also says the main problem with ultra-processed food is that people overeat it, and that plant-based mac and cheese and keto cookies miss the point for the same reason [6].

The plant-forward researcher: Marie-Pierre St-Onge

Plants first, animals in portion. Marie-Pierre St-Onge, a professor of nutritional medicine at Columbia University, studies how sleep and diet affect each other [7]. Her research links Mediterranean and DASH-style diets, which emphasize fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, low-fat dairy and plant-based foods, with better sleep and fewer insomnia symptoms [7]. In her inpatient study, "higher intakes of fiber were associated with more deep sleep, higher intakes of saturated fat, less deep sleep," and more refined carbohydrates and simple sugars meant more arousals [7]. She also describes David Jenkins's portfolio diet, built around soy protein, nuts, plant sterols and soluble fiber, which lowered cholesterol as much as a statin in a head-to-head comparison [7].

The satiety question. Huberman raises the protein side's main worry: that plant-heavy diets built on grains and nuts are easy to overeat compared with protein-rich foods like chicken or eggs [7]. St-Onge's reply is a refusal to choose sides: "I think that there's no reason to pit one another against the other" [7]. High-volume plant foods, she says, fill you up with fewer calories, and nuts extend fullness with some protein and healthful fats [7]. Then she states her balance plainly: "I'm not saying animal products are bad. I think they're important for a diet. I think they're important for health. It's just a matter of portion size and making sure that there's not over-emphasis on animal products over plant-based products because we know that plant-based products are so much healthier in terms of heart health, reduction of type 2 diabetes, cancer risk, and other metabolic diseases" [7]. Huberman, who eats meat, says what he finds easiest to overeat are starch-fat and starch-sugar-fat combinations like pizza [7].

The rancher: Taylor Sheridan and the myth of harmless eating

Disconnected from food. Taylor Sheridan, the writer behind Yellowstone and 1883 and owner of the Four Sixes Ranch, argues that people in big cities "do not understand where their food comes from" [8]. He recalls a letter to the editor in Los Angeles, after a cheerleader had gone hunting and killed a deer and the picture made it into the paper or somewhere else, saying all hunters should be killed: "Why can't they just go get their food at the grocery store where it's made?" [8]. Rogan's answer to people who say they could never hunt while eating meat: "You just hired a supermarket hitman" [8]. The conversation adds that this applies to everyone: "I don't care if you're vegan or not. It's been given to you" [8].

Ethical veganism challenged. Sheridan is blunt: "I think one of the most absurd positions anyone can take is they're a vegan for an ethical reason" [8]. He allows a different case: "You could do it for a medical reason," though he doesn't know what that reason would be [8]. His argument comes from farming: "I have plowed a field. It is carnage. It is 12 feet of carnage. And every single plant that you eat is going to be tiled into the ground in some capacity" [8]. Rogan adds the claim that "The average organic avocado farm in central California is going to kill on average around 19,000 ground squirrels a year," not counting the bees brought in to pollinate [8]. They point to chimpanzees hunting monkeys as a reminder that nature is not vegan [8].

Hunting as an alternative. Sheridan says he had three steers, two deer, 60 chickens and a greenhouse when the pandemic hit and didn't miss a beat, and Rogan describes eating only wild game and farmers' market food for five years in Los Angeles [8]. Sheridan does the math: a used rifle for about $400, bullets and a license, and you can put a year of meat in the freezer for around $600, with the cost dropping each year after [8]. They also mention Hunters for the Hungry and Austin chef Jesse Griffiths, who teaches people to hunt, butcher and cook wild game [8].

Where They Agree, and Where They Don't

They agree that junk food is the enemy on both sides. Barker says there are junk-food meat eaters and junk-food vegans alike [1]. Hyman's core rule is to eat real food and avoid processed ingredients [3]. Norton says plant-based mac and cheese and keto cookies miss the point because ultra-processed food is easy to overeat [6]. Lyon points out that the 70% of the American diet that is plant-based is mostly refined carbohydrates, sugars and cereals [5]. St-Onge links refined carbohydrates and simple sugars to worse sleep [7].

They agree quality matters more than labels. Hyman's "one size that fits all is quality" [3], St-Onge's refusal to pit plants against animals [7], Lyon's insistence that she is not anti-plant [4], and Norton's view that plant eaters can build muscle with planning [6] all move the argument away from tribal identity toward food quality and amounts. Barker's "dial it in" says the same thing from personal experience [1].

They agree plant-based eating takes more work for protein. Lyon says plant eaters need closer to 1.6 grams per kilogram and careful attention to B12, zinc and iron [5]. Norton says plant proteins are less bioavailable and lower in leucine, so isolates, blends or added leucine help [6]. Barker says it's about dialing your diet in, and he uses an amino acid supplement [1]. Hyman's vegan patient with very low protein, B12 and zinc is his cautionary example [3].

Where they differ: how much animal food, and why. St-Onge argues that plant-based foods are much healthier for heart health, type 2 diabetes and cancer risk, and that animal products should be eaten in the right portions without over-emphasis [7]. Lyon argues the opposite emphasis: that there is no randomized evidence red meat is harmful, that the negative claims rest on epidemiology, and that the rigors of science support a higher protein diet for aging [4]. Norton sits closer to St-Onge on saturated fat and fiber, and closer to Lyon on protein targets [6].

Where they differ: what "the evidence" means. Lyon dismisses epidemiology, including the Blue Zones, as low-quality evidence [4]. Norton notes that red meat studies don't line up as consistently as fiber studies, which always show benefit, and that Mendelian randomization changed his view on LDL [6]. St-Onge's sleep findings come from population studies and controlled inpatient studies [7]. Hyman's strongest claims on climate and food go unchallenged [3].

Where they differ: ethics. Barker's ethics are personal and tolerant: he eats plants and judges people only by whether they are good [1]. Sheridan calls ethical veganism one of the most absurd positions anyone can take, because crop farming kills animals too [8]. Hyman calls feedlot meat cruel and says it should be banned, while defending wild and regeneratively raised animals [3]. Rogan accepts that animals eat animals but wants contact with where his food comes from [1][8].

Where they differ: the environment. Hyman argues that grazing animals are the only way to rebuild soil fast and that much farmland can't grow crops [3]. Lyon cites figures putting cattle at perhaps 3% of U.S. emissions and makes the same marginal-land point [4]. Rogan praises regenerative farms but concedes that cities rely on factory farming [2]. Hyman concedes that a plant-based burger is better than a feedlot burger, which leaves the comparison between plant-based foods and regenerative meat as the real point of contention [3].

Where they differ: raw versus cooked. Harrelson believes cooking above 118 degrees destroys enzymes and much of the nutrition [2]. Norton, by contrast, says cooking generally makes protein more digestible, since denaturing is not destroying [6].

Why It Works

Leucine sets the threshold for muscle. Lyon explains that muscle is a nutrient sensor for leucine, and that about 2.5 grams per meal, roughly 30 grams or more of quality protein, triggers muscle protein synthesis [4]. Norton's wheat-plus-leucine experiment shows why plant protein can match animal protein once leucine is matched [6].

Plant protein comes packaged differently. Plant proteins come with carbohydrate or fat attached and are less bioavailable, so the same muscle effect needs more total protein or isolated sources [5][6]. Lyon's van Loon example suggests mixed plant meals may be absorbed more slowly [5].

Fiber and saturated fat move health markers. Norton cites the fiber meta-analysis linking each 10 grams to about 10 percent lower mortality risk [6]. St-Onge's study links fiber to deeper sleep and saturated fat to lighter sleep [7]. The portfolio diet lowered cholesterol as much as a statin [7].

Protein and volume both fill you up. Lyon cites Heather Leidy's research showing that 30 to 40 grams of protein at breakfast made adolescents less likely to choose donuts later [5]. St-Onge argues that high-volume plant foods provide satiety with fewer calories [7]. Norton notes that a chicken breast, a plain baked potato or oatmeal are all filling, while a tasty protein bar isn't [6].

Some nutrients come mainly from animals. Lyon notes that creatine is absent from plant products and that iron is more bioavailable in red meat [4]. That is why she, Barker and Norton describe supplements or isolates for plant eaters [1][4][6].

Grazing and soil. Hyman describes how herds moved quickly across fields fertilize the land and prompt plants to put down deeper roots, which he says pulls more carbon from the atmosphere [3]. Rogan's soil comparison makes the same point visually [2].

Where It Applies, and Where It Doesn't

It applies most to people who need protein. Lyon's thresholds matter most as people age, since older adults need more protein per meal to stimulate muscle [4][5]. Young, active people respond to smaller amounts [5].

Plant-based eating fits some people well. Hyman says Rich Roll thrives as a vegan endurance athlete [3], and Barker says his blood work shows top-notch protein [1]. Norton believes plant eaters can build as much muscle with planning [6].

It doesn't excuse junk food on either side. A diet labeled vegan or carnivore can still be built on processed food, and every source that discusses it treats that as the real problem [1][3][6].

The ethics depend on what you value. Sheridan's crop-death argument rests on counting every life equally; the conversation acknowledges that if you think small lives aren't as valuable as large ones, "that's a totally different discussion" [8]. Hyman separates feedlot cruelty from regenerative farming [3]. Barker treats food as a personal choice [1].

Strong claims need weighing. Hyman's climate and health figures and Rogan's farm claims go unchallenged in their episodes [3][8]. Harrelson's enzyme theory is his personal belief, based on his own experience [2].

Individual health matters. Anyone with a medical condition, kidney disease, diabetes or other concerns, or anyone considering a strict vegan, raw or very high-protein diet, should talk with a doctor or registered dietitian before making major changes.

What To Do With It

1. Cut ultra-processed food first, whatever your tribe. Vegan pizza and keto cookies fail for the same reason; eat real food [1][3][6].

2. Hit a protein threshold at each main meal. Aim for about 30 grams or more of quality protein, especially at the first meal and as you age [4][5].

3. If you eat plant-based, aim higher and choose well. Lyon suggests closer to 1.6 grams per kilogram; use rice and pea blends, soy, potato protein or fermented powders, and consider topping up leucine [5][6].

4. Watch the nutrients plants supply less of. Plant eaters should keep an eye on B12, zinc, iron, creatine and omega-3s, as Lyon and Hyman's examples show [3][4][5].

5. Eat more fiber. Norton suggests about 15 grams per 1,000 calories from diverse sources, and St-Onge links fiber to deeper sleep [6][7].

6. Keep animal foods in proportion. St-Onge recommends portions that don't crowd out plants, and Norton suggests limiting saturated fat to about 7 to 10 percent of calories [6][7].

7. If you eat meat, pay attention to how it was raised. Hyman draws the line between feedlot and wild or regeneratively raised animals [3].

8. Know where your food comes from. Sheridan and Rogan urge people to understand what it takes to put food on the table, whether through hunting, farmers' markets or growing some of your own [8].

9. Judge people, not plates. Barker's household mixes vegetarians and meat eaters, and both he and Rogan argue that attacking others over diet changes no one's mind [1].

Sources

1. Travis Barker on Surviving a Plane Crash, 20 Years Afraid to Fly, and Relentless Discipline · The Joe Rogan Experience
2. Woody Harrelson · The Joe Rogan Experience
3. How Food Heals or Harms Your Body, Aging & Mental Health with Dr. Mark Hyman · The School of Greatness
4. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Why We're Under-Muscled, Not Over-Fat: Protein, Leucine, and Muscle as the Organ of Longevity · The School of Greatness
5. How to Exercise & Eat for Optimal Health & Longevity · Huberman Lab
6. Dr. Layne Norton on Energy Balance, Protein, Fiber, Sweeteners and Sustainable Fat Loss · Huberman Lab
7. Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge on Eating for Better Sleep and Foods That Improve Metabolic Health · Huberman Lab
8. Taylor Sheridan on 1883, the Real American West, Critics, Food and a Divided Country · The Joe Rogan Experience